Template talk:Institution

Template:Institution has been protected indefinitely because it is a highly-used or visible template. Use {{Edit request}} on this page to request an edit. Please test any changes in the template's /sandbox or /testcases subpages, or in a user subpage, and consider discussing changes at the talk page before implementing them.

Archives Archive of Meta information museum template

colors

Wouldn't it look cleaner and smoother if the background of the museum box was transparent or the same color as the background of template painting ? Or does really the museum template need to be made so conspicuous within the infobox ?--Zolo (talk) 08:48, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I just made it the same as {{Creator}} template, which should be also present for majority of the artworks. --Jarekt (talk) 13:13, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I've noticed that. But since the creator template appears at the beginning of the infobox, it doesn't have the same visual effect. Also, creator is arguably more important than museum, so it may be normal that it is made more conspicuous. Personnally I think a transparent museum museum would look better (I wouldn't mind a transparent creator template either, but it doesn't strike me as much)--Zolo (talk) 13:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry to lay such emphasis on smewhat trivial point, but to me, this

Title	A Court Lady Viewing Cherry Blossoms
Date	between 1810(1810) and 1865(1865)
Medium	Woodblock color print
Dimensions	21.3 × 18.4 cm (8.4 × 7.2 in)
Current location	en
Accession number	29.1476
Notes	Bequest of Marion Reilly. Signature: Gakutei Sadaoka fude
Source/Photographer	Online Collection of Brooklyn Museum; Photo: Brooklyn Museum, 29.1476_IMLS_SL2.jpg
Permission (Reusing this file)	This image was uploaded as a donation by the Brooklyn Museum, and is considered to have no known copyright restrictions by the institutions of the Brooklyn Museum. Note: While the Brooklyn Museum cannot make an absolute statement on copyright status for legal reasons, it supports and encourages the Wikimedia community in researching and applying the copyright status tag that is most appropriate for their purposes.

would look much better than this:

Artist	Yashima Gakutei (1786–1868) Description Japanese ukiyo-e artist Date of birth/death 1786(1786) 1868(1868)
Title	A Court Lady Viewing Cherry Blossoms
Date	between 1810(1810) and 1865(1865)
Medium	Woodblock color print
Dimensions	21.3 × 18.4 cm (8.4 × 7.2 in)
Current location	Brooklyn Museum Native name Brooklyn Museum Location New York City Coordinates 40° 40' 16.1" N, 73° 57' 48.43" W    Established 1895(1895) Website www.brooklynmuseum.org
Accession number	29.1476
Notes	Bequest of Marion Reilly. Signature: Gakutei Sadaoka fude
Source/Photographer	Online Collection of Brooklyn Museum; Photo: Brooklyn Museum, 29.1476_IMLS_SL2.jpg
Permission (Reusing this file)	This image was uploaded as a donation by the Brooklyn Museum, and is considered to have no known copyright restrictions by the institutions of the Brooklyn Museum. Note: While the Brooklyn Museum cannot make an absolute statement on copyright status for legal reasons, it supports and encourages the Wikimedia community in researching and applying the copyright status tag that is most appropriate for their purposes.

(even if I didn't manage to get the exact same color as the background)--Zolo (talk) 11:09, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

I do prefer the original version, but I might be just used to it. I do not like how the proposed version kind of disappears and it is hard to tell the layout of the table. However check other people opinions (may be on talk page of {{Creator}}), if other frequent users agree that other color scheme is better I will go with the majority. --Jarekt (talk) 14:18, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, I'll ask on tl creator talk page--Zolo (talk) 15:13, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Original name

When the original name of the museum is not in a language using Roman alphabet, should it be transliterated or should the original writing system be used or both ? e.g. for Tretyakov gallery : "Государственная Третьяковская Галерея", "Gossudarstwennaia Tretjakowskaia Galereia" or both ? I suppose there should be one single convention for all languages.

For Chinese, I think that the most common usage is to give the pinyin form rather than Chinese characters (Now that Chinese characters are supported by most computers, I'm not sure there is still much point in doing it that way however)--Zolo (talk) 11:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I would vote to use, in case of languages using non-Roman alphabets, name in original alphabet and transliteration or translation in parenthesis afterward. Alternatively we can use LangSwitch. The main purpose, the way I see it, is that I know several museums in Poland which have names which translate rather badly and it would be hard to identify it based on translated name. I assume similar might be true for US or English museums, where even for people not speaking English it might be more useful to refer to it by English name than by translated or transliterated name. --Jarekt (talk) 02:20, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Location

For what I can see, most art historians and artbook give the name of the city along with the name of the museum (most often in the form: City, Museum). Since the name of the city can be considered essential information, shouldn't it be given, even when the template is collapsed ? This means city would be displayed twice when the template is uncollasped, but that's the same for birth and death dates in tl creator, so I think it is not a problem.--Zolo (talk) 11:29, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I prefer to use names in the form used in Wikipedias, without city, unless city is needed to distinguish it from some other museum. For example "Glyptothek" can be found in Munich and in Copenhagen that is why I used name "Glyptothek, Munich" same with "National Gallery" - many nations have National Galleries so I call it "National Gallery, London". On the other hand many names are unique and do not need cities to uniquely identify them. For example "Brooklyn Museum, Brooklyn", "Acropolis Museum, Acropolis" sound rather silly to me. Even "Louvre, Paris" seem to be an overkill since no other city has "Louvre". --Jarekt (talk) 02:36, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

That would be Acropolis Museum, Athens and Brooklyn Museum, New York City. It is quite customary to have it this way (or more commonly, Athens, Acropolis Museum [1], but to me it looks a bit strange here) For famous museums, it may look a bit ridiculous, but since it is not easy to draw a line, it seems simpler to always add the city. There can't be much confusion for Leonardo da Vinci either, but it's quite natural to add "(1452-1519)".--Zolo (talk) 07:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I do not have strong preference one way or the other, but I think we need more opinions here. We could wait until more users start creation those templates and than ask for opinions. we could ask at {{Painting}} which seems to be watched by more users, or we can see how people use the template. Either way I do not think a change to {{Museum}} is needed, just to the infoboxes using it. --Jarekt (talk) 14:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

By the way. See Commons:WikiProject Museums/Museums naming. --Jarekt (talk) 20:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. I am not sure that the same guideline shoud go for information displayed within infobox and for category or file names, however. Just as I am not sure we should adopt the full "Musée du Louvre, Paris, France" that was used in metainformation museum.--Zolo (talk) 22:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Hum... I am not knowledgeable at all on this, but probably artbooks give the name of the city along the name of the museum because if some folk does not know that Louvre is in Paris, he has no way to know it? Here, the location is given two rows below, and the name is even hyperlinked to Wikipedia (in whatever language), so I do not see any "essential information" lost here.

(Of course, disambiguation is a different matter, and it may require the location for this purpose.)

I don't know, I understand the desire to emulate the best practices used in the "real world", but sometimes I fear it gets a bit silly (like here, for example). But well, it does not cost us much to follow this guideline, so if there is a tiny gain in doing so, let's do so. Jean-Fred (talk) 20:21, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is just two lines below but it is in a collapsible template, so I am not sure everyone with think of uncollapsing it. (true, it is not a major point).--Zolo (talk) 20:46, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Namespace

aspects for one or the other solution 

aspects\option	Pseudo-namespace in ns:0	Template namespace	new namespace
Strengths
Weaknesses
Opportunities
Threats

Would there be an advantage in converting these from a pseudo-namespace in namespace:0 to a real namespace? Similar to Creator namespace.  Docu  at 08:46, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

I always assumed that once there is enough of those we will create a new Museum: namespace. It is possible we already reached the point when that should happen. That way we could drop the confusing : in front of Museum in {{:Museum:name}}. This template was always mirroring Creator templates which have its own namespace. Does anybody know where we should ask for approval for a new namespace - Commons:Administrators' noticeboard? --Jarekt (talk) 19:55, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

If there is a consensus to create one, we could request it in Bugzilla. Care should be taken that the namespace also goes into the most important dumps.  Docu  at 11:32, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

I would intuitively support a "museum" artspace, be it only to avoid the semi-colon before "museum:XX" in files. But in this particular case, it seems to me it would not make any major difference to have a real namespace (correct me if I am wrong)--Zolo (talk) 12:59, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

You are correct - it does not make much difference. It helps with semi-colon before "museum:XX", which would be less confusing for users used to creator: namespace. Another advantage is that I can use {{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}|Museum|...}} statement in my wiki code and have different behavior of {{Museum}} in that namespace. Also Category:museum templates are at present in Gallery namespace, which does not seem right. --Jarekt (talk) 19:16, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

BTW, pages-articles.xml.bz2 (see e.g. http://dumps.wikimedia.org/commonswiki/20100923/ ) should include this namespace.  Docu  at 04:25, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

The discussion on VP is now archived at Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2010Oct#New_proposed_namespace_Museum:

Shall we move ahead with the suggested "Institution:" name for the namespace? --  Docu  at 09:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

If we settle on the name "Institution", which to me have a lot of other connotations (Institution of marriage, mental institution, etc.) than we should also rename the {{Museum}} to {{Institution}}. I guess we would have to do a lot of renaming or redirects to fix existing templates, but it should be done earlier than latter, before we have much more of them. --Jarekt (talk) 12:23, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

We could add an explanatory note about the purpose of the namespace to the editnotice.

BTW, if we defined an alias for the namespace, e.g. "Museum:", we could still use that in links.  Docu  at 05:55, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

If it is possible to have namespace as the "official" name and keep "museum" as a synonym in both the namespace and the template, I guess it would be a good solution. Is there any other type of institution that may need a namespace on Commons ? Otherwise, If not, I don't think it matters too much that the word has so many meanings.--Zolo (talk) 06:16, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Sounds good, let's go ahead.--Pharos (talk) 20:21, 3 November 2010 (UTC)

OK, "Institution:" namespace with "Museum:" as alias - sounds good to me. Anybody knows what is the next step. Bugzilla request, or some edit in Commons environment files? --Jarekt (talk) 02:11, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I have filed Bug 25779. Now we have to wait for a server administrator :-) Raymond 07:45, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks --Jarekt (talk) 14:21, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Good. BTW, should we add the a separate request for search (similar to bugzilla:22404) or include it there?

To change "pages-articles.xml.bz2" (e.g. on future versions of http://download.wikimedia.org/commonswiki/20101101/) should we add that there too?  Docu  at 19:49, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

 Support (I think I expressed my support for this somewhere else ; but restating it in case the Bugzilla folks would find the consensus too small :-) Jean-Fred (talk) 20:11, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

BTW, as there probably different people dealing with the requests, I filed bugzilla:25836 and bugzilla:25837.  Docu  at 12:18, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Update: The new namespace Institution with Museum as alias was created a few hour ago and is included in the default search results. 1 error occured:

... 11727768 (0,"Museum:musei_Vaticani") -> (106,"Musei_Vaticani")
[[Institution:Musei Vaticani]]
...  *** cannot resolve automatically; page exists with ID 11727785 ***
...  *** old title musei_Vaticani
...  *** new title musei_Vaticani--DUP
...  *** using suffixed form [[Institution:Musei Vaticani--DUP]] ***
... resolving on page... ok.

Raymond 07:21, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok thanks a lot, btw what went wrong with Musei Vaticani ?--Zolo (talk) 08:47, 9 November 2010 (UTC)

It might have existed as Museum:Musei_Vaticani and Museum:musei_Vaticani or Institution:Musei_Vaticani. It's there at least once now. - User:Docu

That was quick. Thanks a lot. Looks good, search will probably update later this morning. -- User:Docu

We might need to edit (or refresh) the pages in Institution namespace to get picked up by the search engine. Currently, e.g. Special:Search/prefix:Institution: only gives 10 results, one of which I edited yesterday. We could combine this with some clean-up (e.g. removing the linkback field, changing the template name). 08:13, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

New Museum: templates

A lot of new Category:museum templates are being created in last week or two. I would appreciate some help with creating museum templates for museums in Category:Information museum templates, which I am steadily replacing with {{Artwork}} & {{Museum}} templates. --Jarekt (talk) 14:23, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I have just done one small, you can delete {{information Crypta Balbi}}. (I have also tried to manually adapt some files to the new template (date, medium etc.)--Zolo (talk) 16:35, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, the easiest way to switch them is not manual, I usually:

1. Create new Museum template
2. Change "Template:Information ... Museum" to use {{Artwork}} and {{Museum}}, see {{Information MAR Palermo}} and this change
3. In all files using the template replace "{{Information MAR Palermo" with "{{subst:Information MAR Palermo and let the server do the work, see example.

I can easily do steps 2 and 3, but #1 takes the most time.

Okay. But it is still necessary to move dates and mediums to their right place afterwards.--Zolo (talk) 17:13, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean, but I do not think so. Check Special:Contributions/JarektBot to see what I am doing and let me know if I am missing anything. --Jarekt (talk) 17:27, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Information museum templates seldom use a "date" parameter, and never use "medium". Here, for instance, 150-200 AD should go into the date field. But I don't think a bot can do that--Zolo (talk) 18:22, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

I see what you mean. My main concern with switching from file description based on Information museum templates to descriptions using Artwork and Museum templates is to ensure that information is not lost. But I agree that "Information museum templates" often did not have many fields filled and those need manual fixes. That can not be done easily by a bot, and I will leave it for others to do, but I am helping with this task by providing empty fields to fill. --Jarekt (talk) 19:45, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

Arrow missed

In File:Hoerle Zeitgenossen.jpg I miss the little arrow to open the museum box. Maybe I made an error in Museum:Kölnisches Stadtmuseum ? Or is it an error in {{Museum}}? Raymond 08:01, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

No, it is apparently a problem with all files using {{Museum}}. I will as at Village pump. Thanks for finding this. --Jarekt (talk) 15:28, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Linkback

If linkback doesn't point back to the template for a specific museum, somehow pages don't get categorized at all. That can happen when one fixes the name of a museum by moving a template.  Docu  at 04:54, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

location withing the museum and museum name

• Would it be more or less convenient to include the location within the museum within the template. gallery={{institution:British Museum|floor=1|Room=12}} rather than gallery={{institution:British Museum}} |location={{museum location|floor=1|Room=12}}
• Currently, when we need to write a langSwitchable version of a museum name (in {{provenanceEvent}} for example) we can use a template like {{Met}}. What it good is that it is quick, but I wonder if it would make maintenance easier to have rename it to {{museum:Met/name}} or something like that. --Zolo (talk) 06:27, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Personally, I think {{Met}} should be replaced by {{museum:Met}} (or whatever its name will be).

There are cases where you can't use {{museum:Met}} For example if you want to write "bought from the Metropolitan Museum" you have to write {{provenanceEvent|type=purchase|oldowner={{Met}}}} but it would look weird to have a full museum template here.--Zolo (talk) 11:28, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

(marginally related) The current use of "location=" in Template_talk:Artwork isn't easy (it's either city or location within the museum). At least for Creator:Berthe Morisot/works, the result isn't ideal.

We could consolidate it with "gallery=" and/or modify {{museum}} to output the museum's name and location in separate columns when used on pages such as Creator:Berthe Morisot/works. --  Docu  at 11:00, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Many topics here:

• I agree that "Location" is confusing with its dual meaning, but there is not much we can do about it. It was unclear in the original template and different people used that field differently. It would be hard/impossible to fix it by bot.
• About combining Museum templates with {{museum location}} it can be easily done but it would look the same as current approach and I do not see much benefit. The downsize is that Museum templates would become more complicated and not as intuitive.
• About move from {{Met}} to museum:Met/name like templates: I do not see the benefit of that. --Jarekt (talk) 18:38, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

I just thought it may be good to have a centralized place for things about the museum, but you are right, there may not beany convincing reason for that. I see some benefits, but they are not very substantial:

• Put the location within the museum in the gallery field would allow to do without a location field for new files.
• move {{Met}} to museum:Met/name has no real benefit but the museum field is much more successful than langSwitchable museums name templates, so we would probably get more templates. But it can be done the other way round: try to systematically use a multinlingual template:X museum in the name field of Museum:X museum.--Zolo (talk) 20:53, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Rename template to {{Institution}}?

Shall we rename this template to {{Institution}}, so it matches the namespace? --Jarekt (talk) 06:47, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, sounds ok.  Docu  at 07:05, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Agree, sounds logical. Jean-Fred (talk) 09:45, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Jarekt (talk) 19:44, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

Can somebody look at the many broken institution redirects in Special:BrokenRedirects. I try to keep that relatively tidy. --Foroa (talk) 07:04, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Adding a new field 'Description'

I would like to suggest that a new field 'Description' similar to the {{Creator}} template should be added to the template. This can provide a little helpful piece of information about the institution. For example, that Santa Maria dei Candeli is a 14th century former church or that Rijksmuseum Amsterdam is a Dutch national museum dedicated to arts, crafts, and history. This is particularly useful when the template is used secondarilly as in the location field of a piece of art for example.  ? --Mattis (talk) 15:51, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

I would support this if we can have something similar to {{NationAndOccupation}}, otherwise, I am afraid it will become a bit messy.--Zolo (talk) 17:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

From looking at how this field has been used in the {{Creator}} template, the majority of usage seems to be fine. I think generally users of this field are aware that it not meant to be too lengthy but to give some ideas about who the person was. --Mattis (talk) 21:21, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes it seems fine. But to me, we should strive for uniformity and multilinguality, and this can only be done if we have really simple texts inside the template. I would even argue for replacing "description" by "gender", "nation" and "occupation", which are the infos that are supposed to be provided by default, eg in template:creator/preload. (Creator:Elisabeth of Hungary is probably already a bit too detailed and cannot be automatically translate. Of course I agree that more info are sometimes useful, but we probably should create a new, more comprehensive template to achieve that.) For institution, perhaps we could imagine parameters like type (museum, church etc.) or status (private/public; profit/nonprofit...), but I am not sure. --Zolo (talk) 22:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

May be we could introduce "Type" similar to type in en:Template:Infobox museum. If we create a new template {{Institution type}} which would take parameters like: Art museum, Library, Church, etc. and translate them, than we could use this template within Institution template for translation, or We could use some icons similar to w:Template:Museum. --Jarekt (talk) 04:06, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

As this template is meant to be transcluded on hundreds of images for each Institution, a link to the relevant Wikipedia could be sufficient. --  Docu  at 04:15, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Currently the template is mostly used for large institutions but I think it is likely that it will be more and more used for smaller ones that do not have any article on Wikipedia (institution:Archives municipales de Toulouse only has an article in French). I would suggest adding a "type" parameter that would use an internationalisation template similar to {{occupation}} but I am bothered by the fact that in many cases it will look quite silly (Bostom museum of Fine Arts (wtih "description: museum of Fine Arts" in the collapsible part). I think we could also add a "description" parameter that would work that same way as in {{creator}}--Zolo (talk) 08:47, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Adding a new field 'Alternative names'

I would like to suggest that a new field 'Alternative names' similar to the {{Creator}} template should be added to the template. A number of institutions are referred to several names even within the same language in particular religious instituions. Thanks. --Mattis (talk) 16:15, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

 Support, seems a logical harmonization of templates--Zolo (talk) 17:35, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

collaspsing

I have just discovered en:Help:Collapsing#'innercollapse' and 'outercollapse'. It might solve the problem with the lists, but apparently it does not work on Commons (user:Zolo/test).--Zolo (talk) 07:37, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree that capability looks nice. I assume en wiki added some code to their en:MediaWiki:Common.js which is not in our MediaWiki:Common.js. We can try to find someone who knows how to synch them. --Jarekt (talk) 14:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Actually it is in en:MediaWiki:Common.js (that was written on Meta). There is clearly "innercollapse" "outercollaspe" options but I don't speak Javascript.--Zolo (talk) 14:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

I asked for change in MediaWiki talk:Common.js --Jarekt (talk) 15:19, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Specifying a different category

Is it possible to add a parameter allowing a different category to be specified? I created

National Maritime Museum
	Native name	National Maritime Museum
	Location	Greenwich, London, England
	Coordinates	51° 28' 52" N, 0° 0' 20" W
	Established	1937(1937)
	Website	www.nmm.ac.uk

(following "en:National Maritime Museum"), but have just realized that the corresponding category here is "Category:National Maritime Museum, London", which means that the template links to the non-existent "Category:National Maritime Museum". — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 19:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

 Done You can just change home category in the Institution:National Maritime Museum to fix it. --Jarekt (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Ohhh. Stupid me. Thanks. — Cheers, JackLee ^–talk– 04:32, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Category:Institution template stubs

As part of Commons:Batch uploading/Web Gallery of Art I created Category:Institution template stubs and outlined it's purpose in Template:Institution/stub-documentation. As the batch upload is not done yet: still have over 1000 creator templates to create and check metadata of ~5k files already uploaded by others. Please do not delete stub institution templates (even with typos) until batch upload is completed. I would like to request for people working with artworks to grab a few stub templates and matching (red link) categories and either redirect them to existing Institution templates / categories or create new ones. --Jarekt (talk) 13:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Maybe you should tell us when the upload is complete. It would avoid creatign redirects that will have to be deleted afterwards.--Zolo (talk) 02:59, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

I am all done uploading files, but I am still planning on fixing ~6k files already uploaded, many of which do not use {{Artwork}} or even{{Information}}. --Jarekt (talk) 04:07, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Lets not wait for the upload to finalize - I can correct Institution template names and institution category names before the upload, I just have to know the link from the old name to the new one. That link I can get from redirect from already existing Institution template (with incorrect or alternative name) to the new one. Before any new upload I will compile a list of Institution namespace redirects and change my institution strings accordingly. I will change Template:Institution/stub-documentation to that effect. --Jarekt (talk) 16:21, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

I corrected the home cat on many institutions: that might give you a path to the correct categories and related institute templates. (if the link is red, then nothing has been done yet). Note that I redirected some of the red categories to a subcat such as "paintings in "Institute"". --Foroa (talk) 16:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

OK, Prior to next upload I will scan all Institutions for current Homecats and use those. --Jarekt (talk) 16:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

┌─────────────────────────────────┘
Commons:Batch uploading/Web Gallery of Art is completed. No more files will be used that add current Category:Institution template stubs or their categories. --Jarekt (talk) 12:53, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

In case anybody could use it, I created User:Jarekt/Institution Stubs page which allows sorting Institution template stubs by name, city and number of images using them. As with any static page - it is already out of date. Feel free to edit it if needed. By the way I deleted about 80 unused Institution template stubs. --Jarekt (talk) 18:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

template scope

Would it be okay to use {{institution}} for thus US War department here ?--Zolo (talk) 06:46, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I would vote no. Just like adding creator templates to describe people depicted in the images, using Institution template to describe institution that produced the image would be confusing. For example at the moment it is safe to add all images with some institution template to category "Artworks at Institution". That would not be true if we started using it for other purposes. --Jarekt (talk) 12:29, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

"part of" parameter

If we create template for branches of the National Archives and Records Administration and of other institutions, should there be a "part of" parameter (or whatever the name should be)--Zolo (talk) 02:07, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

In most cases I assume each institution will have its own article on the wikipedia (and category here), like presidential libraries which are part of National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). In such case, I do not think we need to list parent organization (the "part of"). Are there any existing institution templates, or institution stub templates that need it? --Jarekt (talk) 12:31, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

I also think each institution will have its own category here (though not all have articles on en.wiki or even on any wikipedia). But to me it would be clearer to have a "part of" parameter at template like Institution:National Archives at College Park. The way it is, it looks as if the NARA headquarters were in College Park (It is written the same way as "Louvre, Paris" on painting captions). There are other cases where I think it could be interesting to have a 'part of' parameter. For example Institution:Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal is actually a branch of institution:Bibliothèque Nationale de France. It is clearly stated in Wikipedia but we should probably not expect every one to go there to read the article. In this case it makes some difference that the Bibliothèque de l'Arsenal is part of the BNF: eg it is much easier to move a document from one institution to the other than to a private library.--Zolo (talk) 01:29, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I am fine with adding it, but I am not sure what to call it. "Part of" would not work in Polish, Russian and probably many other languages since the name in that box would have to be conjugated. May be "Parent institution"?--Jarekt (talk) 03:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure either. "Parent" is probably better than any other term that I can think of.--Zolo (talk) 06:31, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

 Done I added "parent" parameter for parent institutions. Please translate. --Jarekt (talk) 14:06, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Did you forget institution={{{institution}}} in the /en subpage or just wait for the translations ?--Zolo (talk) 01:26, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

No I forgot about it. Now I added it to all subtemplates --Jarekt (talk) 03:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

How to add Institution templates to {{Information}}

Hi, I just noticed that the way {{Information}} template is written one can easily add fields to it, for example one can add "current location" field with Institution template for images that fall out of scope of {{Artwork}} like zoo animals. For example the code:

{{Information
|Description={{en|Birds of [[w:Smithsonian National Zoological Park|National Zoo]] in [[w:Washington, D.C.|Washington, D.C.]] -
''Mandarin Duck'' ([[Aix galericulata]])}}
{{Information field|name={{int:wm-license-artwork-current-location}}|value={{Institution:Smithsonian National Zoological Park}} }}
|Source={{own}}
|Date=2010-09-19 17:05:31
|Author=John Doe
|Permission=
|other_versions=
|other_fields=
}}

gives

Description	English: Birds of National Zoo in Washington, D.C. - Mandarin Duck (Aix galericulata)
Current location	Smithsonian National Zoological Park Native name Smithsonian National Zoological Park Location 3001 Connecticut Ave. NW, Rock Creek Park, Washington, D.C. Coordinates 38° 55' 51.9" N, 77° 2' 59.03" W    Established 1889(1889) Website nationalzoo.si.edu
Date	19 September 2010(2010-09-19), 17:05:31
Source	Own work
Author	John Doe

--Jarekt (talk) 03:02, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Location field

The way the location varies across templates (city, city + country or complete address as in the Zoo above. Should we use {{Building address}} ? It would provided a standardized framework. It would also provide a simple way to add the name of the building (many French museums are located in famous buildings and it is something I never really know how to add). And apparently the template is designed to be easily usable in OpenStreetmap. On the other hand, it is a bit lengthy both to fill and to read. The example below is probably an extreme case.

Musée Lorrain
	Native name	Musée Lorrain
	Parent institution	city of Nancy
	Location	Palais des Ducs de Lorraine 64 Grande Rue 64000 Nancy France
	Coordinates	48° 41' 48.84" N, 6° 10' 49.01" E
	Established	1834(1834)
	Website	www1.nancy.fr

--Zolo (talk) 06:45, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I always thought that in most cases the address was just one click away in the articles about the institutions or on the institutions websites. This might be the case with big, well known museums but not with small churches, etc. As a result I was not adding addresses to the templates, but was also not removing them when other add them. So may be the recommendation should be that the address should be added in the location field, for small institutions, but avoided in case of the big ones? It is a little like references in {{creator}}: if you are linking to the article with 100's of references than there is no need to provide them but when the template is about less known person without any articles than references should be provided. --Jarekt (talk) 14:20, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes I would agree with that. In most cases adding the address may actually be rather confusing and not very useful (people just need the city) if they wish to travel just to find the depicted artwork they can spend to few clicks for the search. I think it is mainly useful for rather obscure institutions that local people may discover through Commons (admittedly not likely to be a frequent case, but it may happen for institutions like Infirmerie Marie-Thérèse, Paris (never heard of the before though I dont live far from it).--Zolo (talk) 17:24, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done I changed the documentation to add recommendation about use of {{Building address}}--Jarekt (talk) 20:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Parameters

Parameters similar to those {{creator}} could be used here but I am not sure how useful they would be

• Authorities (VIAF for the Louvre here). Probably less useful than for creator but it seems consistent to have it.
• Alternative names (we currently have "native name" but in cases like churches, there may be many more than that)
• a "type" parameter (a bit like occupation) It would look silly in many cases ("Boston Museum of Fine Arts type=Museum of Fine arts") but could sometimes be useful. --Zolo (talk) 11:26, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

This template started as an offshoot of the {{creator}} and I copied all the fields I though were relevant at the time. However I agree that it might be worth it to revisit this:

• That said I think we should add some authority control field. My preference would be to create {{Institution authority control}} similar to {{Authority control}} and let people call that template. The candidate parameters would be:

• VIAF
• link to OSM page and outline on the map (see Template_talk:Location#Add_an_optionnal_parameter_for_OpenStreetMap
• possibly other

• Alternative names - so far I never run into a case when I needed it, since most GLAM institution have one official name, but churches, castles, convents, etc. might have multiple names.
• Type - I was toying with the possible uses of type. One idea I had was to add an icon similar to the way en:Template:Museum works. But each time we have an icon clicking it should get you somewhere and I did not have many ideas where. May be category with other institutions of the same type. I was also not sure where to place the icon. Top bar seemed logical but I do not want to overwhelm it with possibly unnecessary junk. As a result I shelved the idea.

--Jarekt (talk) 14:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

For authority control. It should also inclue GKD, that is used in {{authority control}} but is for institutions. LCCN is also used for institutions. Another problem is that a few creators are actually corporations or the like, not individuals. Actually I am beginning to wonder if it was such a good idea to add so many parameters in {{authority control}}. The idea behind VIAF, was to make the participating institutions numbers unncessary. If we added all of the some creator would have 15 authorities. But true, for now there are currently more cats with PND than with VIAF, and links (notably BNF) look much better through direct link that through VIAF link. I dont know about OSM either, it is an ID so it makes sense, but it is geographic info, not institution info, so it makes sens it coordinates as well.

I like the idea of icons, but dont know how to place it either. And if they are too be of some help to the non-informed readers, we will hae to find clearer ones than en.wp--Zolo (talk) 22:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Since most databases are the same as for creators and since anyway some non people are already in category:Categories with authority control data, I would suggest to use the same authority control template as for creators.--Zolo (talk) 21:01, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

{{GeoPolygon}}

That's something I had long hoped we would get one day. I just was not aware that we had had it for 4 years... It could make sense to add it to {{institution}} (see Category:Cemetery Père-Lachaise). I am just lazy about adding it (could wait for an institution transatewikification, so that it is quicker to edit :).--Zolo (talk) 09:51, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I like it but I would like to figure out how to best add it. We could add "outline" link in Coordinates, however that would make it harder to add link to OSM outlines like OSM. We could just add: behind coordinates if we have outline information. --Jarekt (talk) 14:41, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Also we should check if the process still works by adding a new {{GeoPolygon}} template. Some Geocodding templates work with combinations with bots that look for pages with such template, then they harvest and process the data and than display already processed data. When the bot goes down new pages are not processed. --Jarekt (talk) 17:22, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually yes we need some thought beforehand. If we had too many links, it will look real clutterd. I wonder if we really need to have the coordinates displayed. I dont think many people care about it directly. They are mostly a tool to access the map. So maybe we could do without it, eg:

foo
Native name	{{{Native name}}}
Location	{{{Location}}}
Coordinates
Established	{{{Established}}}
Website	{{{Website}}}

--Zolo (talk) 17:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

May be we can suppress coordinates when outlines are provided, but keep them otherwise. Most templates will only have coordinates and I think they look better with coordinates then single icon --Jarekt (talk) 20:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

What I had in mind that to always provide the Google and OSM link that would link to the polygon when available and to the single-point coordinate otherwise. This would allow to bypass the rather messy Geohack page, but it would also give some kind of slightly unfair advantage to theses two websites.--Zolo (talk) 20:11, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I kind of like the coordinates, it makes things less secret and allows people to easily cut&paste or even type them into other programs or gadgets. I added 2 icons to Template:Institution/coordinates for quick access to the maps. Than we can overwrite those defaults with polygons if they are provided. However before we do all this work lets make sure there is no strong opposition to adding those 2 icons to the template. --Jarekt (talk) 04:52, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

 Done Clicking on the Google or OSM icons below will link to outlines instead of coordinates. --Jarekt (talk) 21:58, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Père Lachaise Cemetery
	Native name	Cimetière du Père-Lachaise
	Location	8 Boulevard de Ménilmontant 75020 Paris France
	Coordinates	48° 51' 43" N, 2° 23' 39" E

Thanks, I think it looks good with this small Google icon.--Zolo (talk) 22:24, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Linkback not working

The linkback doesn't seem to be working for me (FF9, Win 7). Clicking on it just opens/closes the box. The link works for {{Creator}}--Strainu (talk) 12:45, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

It does work for me (FF9, Win XP). You click, box opens/closes than you wait and nothing happens and than you end up on the creator page. In the old days you had to click on the arrow to open/close the box, but something changed in the software and now you can click anywhere. Very confusing. How is the linkback working for others? --Jarekt (talk) 12:53, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I have just upgraded from FF8 to FF10 but no link works in neither of them (creator templates work though...)--Zolo (talk) 10:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that's the weird part. The 2 templates seem to have the same code. I must be missing something simple :)--Strainu (talk) 11:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Actually some it works in English, but not in other languages because the "linkback" parameter is missing (compar {{institution/en}} and {{institution/ro}}. Having this template translatewikied to avoid that kind of problem.--Zolo (talk) 18:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I added | linkback = {{{linkback|}}} to all 5 language subtemplates missing it. This should fix it. As for move to translatewiki, I agree. Strangely although it is a vital part of Commons there is no documentation for it, here or on translatewiki. It seems like the only way to do it is to ask user:Multichill, who knows the process. I will ask him. --Jarekt (talk) 19:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok thanksZolo (talk) 20:57, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for fixing this Jarekt!--Strainu (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I have posted a [http://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Village_pump&diff=prev&oldid=66827261 message on the Village Pump about translatewiki. --Zolo (talk) 08:37, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Authority control

I added support for adding {{Authority control}} template, similar to the way {{Creator}} template does it, after I noticed people trying to use it. Apparently many museums are listed in VIAF and other catalogs. --Jarekt (talk) 04:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)